DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[NuSoardGraphite]

Apparently Angry Joe loved it.

 

 

[slikmar]

Something occurred to me today, and I am sure I am not the first one to think of this. When you make a Batman movie, Bruce Wayne is a secondary character and I think that usually works. When you make a Superman movie, what you should be doing is making a Clark Kent, Investigative Journalist movie, with Superman being almost secondary. I know that would be hard to sell, but if you did a real Investigative Journalist movie where Clark is investigating a series of crimes or something bigger (Lexcorp illegal science or Crime Syndicate) and then added Supes into it, you would probably get a much better movie then Superman vs. the huge monster/powerperson you want to use. It's really how he came into conflict with Lex in the beginning, not to mention many others. It's one of the reasons I liked Lois and Clark series - they were reporters first and then Superman. People seem to forget that Clark was at least almost as good as Lois at investigating stuff. They actually have done a decent job of making Lois do the investigating and figuring out stuff in these latest movies, but they seem to dumb down Clark a lot.

I wish that they would try to do this. Course, i wish they would do a detective movie with Batman.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Batman isn't the world's greatest detective any longer though, he's barely known as a detective.  He's the Man with the Plan now.

[Old Man]

Yeah, detective Batman is the Batman I miss most. I don't mind Adam West Batman, Overpowered Justice League Batman, or even Tortured Vigilante Batman, but the detective version is the one I always preferred.

[Hermit]

Went to a 7:30 show..well, I was, but it sold out.

Fortunately, they opened up another theatre for a 7:35

 

On another thread I made this post

 

A lot of the wardrobe does seem a little on the dull side

But the proof will be in the acting, story, and stylistics.

 

I can tell you what I want, what I really really want, in a Suicide Squad Movie

 

1) I want at least two of these guys to die, one nobly, the other just to prove the name of the movie is no joke

2) I want at least one character I can sympathize with, and one that gives me that 'funny but wrong' smile

3) I want the male characters to eye Quinn, and chant to themselves "Don't dip it in crazy, don't dip it in crazy" while still being tempted  so they can speak for many straight men in the audience

4) I want Amanda "The Wall" Waller to be devious, ruthless, and prepared, and to command respect.

5) I want the mission to go FUBAR 2/3rd the way through, and watch the Squad scramble

6) I want the Squad to succeed at their mission anyway even if said success involves a higher body count that Kill Bill 1 & 2 and there's a crater where the mission site used to  be.

 

Mission accomplished....

 

No I'm not kidding. I gave Batman V Superman a 7/10. This is an 8 out of 10. I enjoyed it quite a great deal more than I thought I would after all those bad reviews.  Things that surprised me... 

1) More than once, Will Smith actually made me forget it was Will Smith I was watching, and made me feel sympathy for Deadshot

2) The guy playing Diablo , Jay Hernandez, has one of the best acting moments in the movie.  Seriously, the actor is now on my radar

3) Didn't expect the guest appearance from a certain hero, but I should have

4) Two people get a happy ending

 

Now I did call who would live and who would die, but the hows and whys varied enough that I didn't feel cheated 

 

I know I'm a soft touch, but I'm thinking of going again while it's in theaters if that tells you anything.

[bigdamnhero]

There is something appealing about any successful fictional character.  It doesn't matter whether it's Superman or Freddy Krueger, there is something about the character that readers/audiences/whoever responded to.  If you're going to translate that character into a new medium, you should try and make sure that the thing that makes them appealing is also translated into the new form.  "Being true to the source material" doesn't necessarily mean you have to make a movie that fanboys will love.  I've had enough internet conversations with fanboys to know that most of them have absolutely horrid suggestions for movie scripts.

Amen. I agree Marvel has been really good at this, but they're also good at knowing what to change in order to make a better movie. I've said it before, but while I would prefer to see a good movie that captures what *I* already love about these characters, I'll happily settle for a good movie. And if it shows me a different take on the characters that I hadn't thought about, that's fine too.

 

About 20 minutes into MoS, I realized "Ah, this is the Superman from Dimension Whatever where Clark was raised to be a whiny narcissistic dick. OK, let's see what they do with that." And I made a conscious shift to dismiss all preconceptions and just try to enjoy the movie for what it was. But I still failed because MoS was IMO just an awful %#$*ing train wreck of a film that had no idea what it was doing. I could've overlooked the fact that it was a lousy Superman movie if it had just been a good movie, but for me it didn't even accomplish that.

 

When you make a Batman movie, Bruce Wayne is a secondary character and I think that usually works. When you make a Superman movie, what you should be doing is making a Clark Kent, Investigative Journalist movie, with Superman being almost secondary. I know that would be hard to sell, but if you did a real Investigative Journalist movie where Clark is investigating a series of crimes or something bigger (Lexcorp illegal science or Crime Syndicate) and then added Supes into it, .

What's interesting about this is that Batman Begins - IMO the best Batman movie to date* - was 90% about Bruce Wayne and what led him to put on a bat costume at night and punch criminals. I thought that was largely what made it work, and certainly what made it appealing to a wide audience of non-fans. And while I think we've passed the point where every superhero movie needs to be a long drawn-out origin story, I think that focus on the person under the mask is still critical to making these larger-than-life heroes relatable.

 

That's even more true for Superman, because at his core he is always first and foremost the kid from Smallville no matter which suit he's wearing. So yeah, a good Superman movie should keep its focus on Clark as a person, even when he's in costume punching things. In its defense, I think MoS tried to do that to some extent; they just botched it badly.

 

* Heath Ledger notwithstanding.

[Bazza]

Superman & Superman II Richard Donner cut is still the best adaption of Superman because it showed both personas: everyman Clark, & Superman taking on 3 deadly evil Kryptonians.

[zslane]

Batman and Superman have decades of former representations on television and film essentially weighing them down, and so there is immense pressure to find a fresh take on the character with each new outing. That tends to lead studios in all kinds of disastrous creative directions. "Staying faithful" to the character looks to studio execs like code for "copy a previously take on the character," which is anathema to them.

 

In contrast, aside from Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk, the characters in the MCU are all completely brand new to most viewers, and so Marvel enjoys the luxury of having no audience expectations to meet. I find Spider-Man to be a fascinating case. Despite a very successful, and pretty faithful take on the character not that long ago (i.e., recent enough to be in the CGI era), Marvel is betting that they can do it at least as well, if not better. If it was WB/DC trying that (and with any character other than Batman), that hubris would lead to catastrophe, I'm certain of it.

[Nolgroth]

Apparently Angry Joe loved it.

 

 

 

I actually got sidetracked by his Doom review before I watched Angry Joe and friends beat up the critics. I tend to trust Angry Joe reviews because, even if he disagrees with my own assessment on something, he tends to explain why he likes/dislikes something. That lets me make an informed choice. 

[sinanju]

Well, I finally saw Batman vs Superman last night. My brother-in-law has a Plex server we have access to, so I was able to watch it.

 

The good:

It wasn't the eye-searingly awful travesty I was expecting. I have no need/desire to watch it again, mind you, but I don't regret the THREE HOURS I spent watching it.

Gail Gadot was good as Wonder Woman. She's attractive (but she doesn't make me jump up and down in my seat because she's so hot), and she really sold the love of battle (or maybe of a real challenge) in the final boss fight. I'm looking forward to the Wonder Woman movie.

Ben Affleck was...adequate at Batman. Jeremy Irons as Alfred was far more entertaining (but then, he wasn't so wrapped up grimdark angst that he couldn't make smartass remarks).

What's-his-face as Superman was...okay. I've never liked him as well as Brandon Routh, to say nothing of Christopher Reeve, but he was okay.

There were flashes of an interesting character in Lex Luthor, but only flashes. Mostly he was a just a long-haired poser in over his head.

 

The bad:

I have no interest in, or respect for, this Batman, or this Superman. Batman is murderous and obsessed with revenge on the guy who tried to (and ultimately did) stop Zod and company, albeit at immense cost in property and lives.

Superman is still a mopey dude so filled with self-doubt (if not self-loathing) that he's just no fun to watch.

The movie was way too long, and the CGI spectacle boss fight, in particular, went on way too long.

Too many irrelevant asides in blatant ploys to tie into the upcoming Justice League movie.

The usual complaints about the washed-out color palette and relentless grimdarkness.

 

Things That Made Me Go Hmmmmm:

There were a few moments (but only a few) that made me think about what the world would think of Superman, given how much less they know about him than we the viewers do. From their point of view, he appeared at the same time as the Kryptonian attackers, the brawl destroyed unimaginable amounts of property and killed many thousands of people. They know Superman is an alien. They know he's physically next thing to a god. They know he goes where he wants and does what he wants, and if he mostly does helpful things, they don't know why--and can't rely on it always being the case. And that's...pretty much it.

 

But those moments were rare. Mostly it was just a film world where altruism and heroism are virtually unknown, a dark, grim (grimdark) world no sane person would want to inhabit. Or watch, for very long, or very often.

[slikmar]

Just saw suicide squad. Don't believe the critics. I have to give a caveat, I really started most of these characters from the new 52 on or the dcau. The characters are nailed. If you pay attention you see why they are chosen for the squad. With the exception of boomerang, they all have a reason to want to do some good. The back and forth comparison of Flag and Lawton is done well. Robbie steals every scene she us in, which says a lot given Smith isn't mailing in his work. You actually care about the characters, and there is no doubt who is probably the most vicious of the people. Not sold on Leto's Joker, but I really liked the dcau Hamil one and Ledgers Joker.

[Beast]

I'd say SS has held off the DCU Moviepocolyse off for another movies to do

I really liked it

[Grailknight]

Just saw SS and I can only say that the critics are way off on this one. This movie is as good as anything the MCU has put out and if Warner had any sense they'd put the team behind this movie in charge of everything to come.

 

On the good side( and it's 90% good):

 

The actors nail their characters. Waller has the biggest brass ones of anyone in the movie, Harley is straight from the DCAU and steals all her scenes, Lawton and Flagg play off each other perfectly and the others play their lesser roles just as well. Leto's Joker is well done with more of an emphasis on the violent crazy.

 

The plot is well setup and flows smoothly. Any critic who couldn't follow it is just straight out dumb or was doing something else while watching. The action is well done and fits the characters;

 

The bad:

 

People walk away uninjured from helicopter crashes a little too frequently.

 

Batman: His appearances actually fit well and advance the story but I finally realize what I don't like about this version(besides the guns and disregard for life in BvS). He doesn't know anything. Batman doesn't go to people for information, he tells them when he fells like it. It's jarring and takes away from the credits scene.

 

Go see this one, you won't be disappointed.

[bigdamnhero]

Just to clarify: did those of you who liked SS also like MoS and BvS? Not saying you're right or wrong in either case - just establishing how well your tastes align with mine.

[slikmar]

I was ok with both of those, though they had their faults. I hated the joker/lex from BvS. I acually have no problem with Afleck as Bats and liked WW. I still wish they had done more with Clark then Supes and felt they played up Bats disliking Supes to much. As for MoS, I liked Lois in it, in that she actually seemed like she could be an investigative jounalist. I wish they hadnt jumped right into world ending destruction from Kryptonians and spent more time with just showing Supes saving people other then in Lois's headlines. Also, I wish he had done more of being a reporter, but I said that before. So I liked them enough, but didnt thing they ranked with most of the MCU. I look forward to WW.

[Grailknight]

For my part, MoS was decent, I didn't like the somber tone or him killing Zod at the end but it worked. Lois was a great character and Clark was fine considering this was his debut as Superman.

 

BvS could have dropped the V. Affleck's Batman was an unabashed killer and had no clue about the metahumans in the world. Superman was dull, joyless and never tried to embrace the public. And for some reason, the US Government and Military let a civilian have unsupervised, and unlimited access to an alien spacecraft crashed into the middle of Metropolis. Wonder Woman and Lois to a lesser extent were the only good things in the movie. A Superman Movie with only one happy scene, I wouldn't have thought it possible until I saw it.

[Hermit]

I gave Batman V Superman the aforementioned 7/10, and this was better so I think 8/10 fits. I recall liking somethings about Man of Steel (Pretty kick ass fight scenes) but don't remember my exact score. Both it and BvS were too shadowy and dim. 

It is ironic that in many ways, Suicide Squad is 'brighter' than either two of those movies. Not by a lot, but definitely a step in progress imo

[zslane]

If there's one thing I've learned it is that I simply can't trust the reviews of others when it comes to these things, especially when they say a movie has "great action scenes." Too many folks have heaped high praise on The Dark Knight for its action scenes, which were often incoherent messes, for me to trust anyone anymore.

[bigdamnhero]

I trust the reviews of other people based on whether they have previously liked stuff that I liked and disliked stuff I disliked. Hence why I asked the question.

 

For professional reviewers, I don't actually care if they like the movie or not; I care if I can tell whether or not I'm going to like the movie based on their review. Ebert was a genius at that; the AV Club is pretty good too.

[Ternaugh]

I trust the reviews of other people based on whether they have previously liked stuff that I liked and disliked stuff I disliked. Hence why I asked the question.

 

For professional reviewers, I don't actually care if they like the movie or not; I care if I can tell whether or not I'm going to like the movie based on their review. Ebert was a genius at that; the AV Club is pretty good too.

 

Ebert started out with SF fandom (fanzines) before he went into journalism. I believe that it's why he'd rate movies on the merits of the film compared to others in the genre, as well as whether it was just a great movie in general.

[Starlord]

I'm going to see SS today, does anyone know if it has an after-credits scene?

[Christopher R Taylor]

My problem with Man of Steel's "kickass fight scenes" was that they were just that: there was nothing about Superman's personality or heroism in them at all.  When the fighting started, it was just two super powerful aliens demolishing the world as they fought instead of two distinct personalities.  it became an overcharged professional wrestling match and all storytelling ended.

 

Superman should have tried to prevent casualties and damage to property, not cause it.

[Grailknight]

I'm going to see SS today, does anyone know if it has an after-credits scene?

 

It has a scene during the credits.

[zslane]

This is the superhero genre (if you'll permit me to call it a genre). There are going to be fight scenes. I get that.

 

The thing is, fight scenes in superhero movies have (perhaps unsurprisingly) become afflicted with the same core problem as chase scenes in action thrillers and sex scenes in porn. They go on way too long for what they accomplish narratively. They are cheap filler intended to keep the viewers occupied, even if they aren't really engaged, so that the 35 minute story takes up the requisite 90-120 minutes of running time. It is a rare movie indeed that manages to use the fight/chase/sex scene effectively as a storytelling device.

 

I suppose there is a significant percentage of the movie-going population that enjoys mindless entertainment for its own sake. But I'm at the point where I don't really like to spend much money or time on it anymore. I have too many demands on my time and far too many better options. That's why, as much as I love superheroes, I only get out to see about half of the MCU films in a theater (I have yet to see a DCCU movie in a theater; Wonder Woman may pull me out of my cave next year though). The majority of movies I rent/stream via Netflix instead, and I honestly don't feel I've missed out on much in doing so.

[Bazza]

I'm going to see SS today, does anyone know if it has an after-credits scene?

From Twitter: "if you see suicide squad be sure to stay after the credits. lots of people leave half empty containers of popcorn and you can just have them"

https://twitter.com/robwhisman/status/761676958082146304