DC Movies- if at first you don't succeed...

[Pattern Ghost]

6 hours ago, zslane said:

 

From a business perspective, it might have to. "Go woke, go broke," isn't just a catchy, politically-incorrect slogan.

 

I was referring to the romance vs. lemonade remark.

 

[Greywind]

What's wrong with onionade anyway?

[Ranxerox]

On 8/13/2021 at 1:11 AM, csyphrett said:

It's fake diversity. And it's annoying

CES

 

I don't see how this is fake diversity.  The character of Tim Drake has been around for 32 years, but Tim Drake the character has only been in the hero business for maybe 3 years.  Moreover, most of his previous girlfriends are no longer canon for the him because their have been like 3 DC reboots since his his introductions.  So a teenage boy goes 3 years without having any same sex romantic relationships, and that is suppose to be proof positive that the boy has absolutely no interest in guys?  That is not how it works in the real world.  A lot of bisexuals don't have there first same sex romance until they are in college or later (sometimes much later).  At the end of the day a character's sexual orientation is whatever the writer says it is, and the current writer has decided that Tim Drake can be romantically interested in at least some guys.  So, his LGBTQ status is as real as anything else in the story or in Tim Drake's cannon.

 

12 hours ago, csyphrett said:

What I was talking about was Geoff Johns wrote a letter to Superboy when Karl and Barbara Kesel were writing it about Lex Luthor being Superboy's dad. The Kesels were like we've already covered this and Lex Luthor is definitely not a clone donor. So when Johns started writing the character in one of the Teen Titans variations, this was one of the plots where Superboy found out Lex Luthor was his dad, turned evil and tried to kill the rest of the team. Copies of the letter went around the internet while this was going on.

 

This is also the reason Cyborg got boosted to be a founding member of the Justice League. Geoff Johns saw him on superfriends and when the 80s Titans were gutted, Johns prevailed to put him in a big seven slot. Unfortunately Cyborg's solo book crashed and burned because most of his support cast were Titans which they couldn't use because he was never a Titan.

 

This could be an example of the same thing where Fitzmartin had an idea when she was a kid that Robin should be bi and now can put in play despite the fact that Chuck Dixon, the guy who created and oversaw the character, never even thought this at all. On the other hand, this could have come down from Editorial and she has to live with it. 

 

But no it's not a natural thing

CES  

 

New writers coming onboard with stories they already want to tell and then proceeding write the those stories is currently the norm.  This how it works now and has been for quite a while.  In a sense most major comic books are now fanfiction, in that there writers grew up reading them and are fans of the books for which now write.  This is not having some sinister agenda, this is just writers having stories that they wish to tell, and it is a natural thing.

[archer]

4 hours ago, Greywind said:

What's wrong with onionade anyway?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onion_Aid

[archer]

1 hour ago, Ranxerox said:

 

I don't see how this is fake diversity.  The character of Tim Drake has been around for 32 years, but Tim Drake the character has only been in the hero business for maybe 3 years. 

 

DC Fandom lists 1244 appearances by him in the comic books. That includes nine versions of him from possible futures.

 

Their fan website always runs behind so the real number of comic books would be higher but call it 1244.

 

It's fine to argue that he's only been in the business for 3 years but we've seen a hell of a lot of him. And this is a jarring change of direction from anything that we've seen. We expect a new villain every month but not a new personality trait.

 

The original comment, or at least one of the first comments, of it seeming fake rather than organic was complaining that they didn't get diversity from creating a new character but from altering one that we know very well at this point.

 

Take Marvel's Hulkling and his husband as an example of not making same-sex attraction seem like a last minute tack-on to a very-well established character.

 

Sure, ultimately we don't own the characters and the writers/editors at DC can do whatever the hell they want with any of their characters at any time. But when they make their characters public, they're intentionally allowing us to form opinions about them.

 

Getting back to your original point. most people who get into cross-dressing don't decide to start when they're a young teen either. But if Tim Drake out of the blue showed up for his next mission in high heels and a very stylish female costume, fans would complain about that too.

 

It's not the high heels and stylish female costume that would be the problem but rather the sudden change with no foreshadowing that it'd be a possibility that it might happen. (At least the lack of foreshadowing would be the problem for most fans.)

 

I'll admit that I don't know how to be a teenaged kid in the 2020's. But I doubt the first indication that someone who might be bi is accepting a date (rather than looking at someone's assets, for example).

 

Comic books are a unique medium in that we get to read a character's innermost thoughts as well as see what he's doing. When you get to read a character's innermost thoughts over a large period of time then you get something happen to his personality that he's literally never even thought about, that seems like the author is cheating rather than treating the reader honestly.

[csyphrett]

6 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

I don't see how this is fake diversity.  The character of Tim Drake has been around for 32 years, but Tim Drake the character has only been in the hero business for maybe 3 years.  Moreover, most of his previous girlfriends are no longer canon for the him because their have been like 3 DC reboots since his his introductions.  So a teenage boy goes 3 years without having any same sex romantic relationships, and that is suppose to be proof positive that the boy has absolutely no interest in guys?  That is not how it works in the real world.  A lot of bisexuals don't have there first same sex romance until they are in college or later (sometimes much later).  At the end of the day a character's sexual orientation is whatever the writer says it is, and the current writer has decided that Tim Drake can be romantically interested in at least some guys.  So, his LGBTQ status is as real as anything else in the story or in Tim Drake's cannon.

 

 

New writers coming onboard with stories they already want to tell and then proceeding write the those stories is currently the norm.  This how it works now and has been for quite a while.  In a sense most major comic books are now fanfiction, in that there writers grew up reading them and are fans of the books for which now write.  This is not having some sinister agenda, this is just writers having stories that they wish to tell, and it is a natural thing.

Your argument cuts both ways, Ranxerox. If a guy has had several girlfriends, and is constantly dating one off and on, never looks at another guy, and then goes hello nurse over some guy he just met, is that natural? The only people I have seen do that basically don't have steady relationships if you know what I mean.

 

And writers having their own stories to tell is great, but not from when they were 10 years, and should know better as an adult. The Superboy arc I talked about failed for Johns. The same thing for Cyborg. 

 

Again a writer can do anything they want. But DC is close to being sold off from Warner Brothers, or being dismantled by ATT and rebuilt. This book has to be a hit so Fitzhearn has to draw readers in, but if she is alienating her core readership with this, she has to replace that reader and get another. I don't see that happening when the top seller can't crack the top twenty.

 

Archer said it a lot better than I ever could. The Immortal Hulk with his mental problems is a natural outgrowth from Peter David's run that set down the multiple personality thing to explain the Hulk's changing mind. This is not that

CES      

CES    

 

[Bazza]

Commentary from reading the posts over the last few days:

- What CES says above about DC as a company must be driving a lot of their decisions. 

- Drake 'coming out' is a bid to stay relevant in the marketplace, and with the dominant culture at the moment. 

- This has already made past the comic book industry, cf Dana Wheeler-Nicholson agreeing with the decision on 'behalf' of her grandfather.

- If this fails, DC as we know it will likely be broken up, or sold to a different company (maybe Disney, if corporate regulators approve).

- if #4, then the individual creators of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman (maybe others), could likely try to regain total ownership of them. I would imagine this would be an option being considered.  

[Hugh Neilson]

9 hours ago, Ranxerox said:

 

I don't see how this is fake diversity.  The character of Tim Drake has been around for 32 years, but Tim Drake the character has only been in the hero business for maybe 3 years.  Moreover, most of his previous girlfriends are no longer canon for the him because their have been like 3 DC reboots since his his introductions.  So a teenage boy goes 3 years without having any same sex romantic relationships, and that is suppose to be proof positive that the boy has absolutely no interest in guys?  That is not how it works in the real world.  A lot of bisexuals don't have there first same sex romance until they are in college or later (sometimes much later).  At the end of the day a character's sexual orientation is whatever the writer says it is, and the current writer has decided that Tim Drake can be romantically interested in at least some guys.  So, his LGBTQ status is as real as anything else in the story or in Tim Drake's cannon.

 

 

New writers coming onboard with stories they already want to tell and then proceeding write the those stories is currently the norm.  This how it works now and has been for quite a while.  In a sense most major comic books are now fanfiction, in that there writers grew up reading them and are fans of the books for which now write.  This is not having some sinister agenda, this is just writers having stories that they wish to tell, and it is a natural thing.

 

Exactly.  Few long-term comic book characters are controlled  by their creators.  Many of their creators are retired or even deceased.  Was it FanFic when Roy Thomas wrote the Invaders and the All-Star Squadron?  He was a fan in the 1940s who became a writer in the 1960s. What's with Batman hating guns?  Originaly he carried a gun and even machine gunned a crowd from his plane.  Superman did not start out so squeamish around killing either, nor could he fly or see through walls.  He gained a lot of powers we now consider canon over time.

 

That may not be the story you want to read.  Maybe you don't want to see Superman and Lois sharing a bath either.  But that does not invalidate the story.  Tony Stark was not an alcoholic in Tales of Suspense.  Or was he, but we just did not KNOW he was an alcoholic?  By #128 of his own book, he was most definitely an alcoholic. The creator of Wolverine envisioned him having claws in his gloves,not embedded in his body, and his adamantium skeleton only showed up around #126 of X-Men, when he's been around since #94 (plus the Giant-Size and Hulk appearances before) so that's also fanfic.  So is Peter Parker's appearance.  Stan Lee once noted that the only thing Romita could not draw was Peter Parker, "the little nebbish".  Stan noted he ultimately accepted that Peter grew up from nerdy, awkward teen to a pretty good-looking guy.

 

Someone once wrote to the Justice League book in the 1970s suggesting Aquaman have "the strength of a whale". In later years, it developed that, due to evolution to deal with the ocean pressures, Atlanteans were much stronger and more durable than surface men.  Fanfic?  It wasn't part of the character for decades.  I recall an issue where Aquaman was hunted through Seattle by an assassin.  The assassin had clearly won - he's kept Aquaman out of the water for well over an hour, and we all knew by canon that he needed to go underwater at least every hour.  Only he didn't - it depended on his environment, and in heavy rain in Seattle, he could last a lot longer than an hour.  Pure fanfic, right?

 

For years, we criticized comic book movies because they were not true to the characters - the writers weren't fans.  We still see that in the criticisms of many DCU movies, not so much Marvel.  But when writers are fans, and they develop the characters, now fan fiction is a bad thing instead?  [EDIT:  Sorry for the thread drift towards the title of the thread itself 😇]

 

7 hours ago, archer said:

 

DC Fandom lists 1244 appearances by him in the comic books. That includes nine versions of him from possible futures.

 

Their fan website always runs behind so the real number of comic books would be higher but call it 1244.

 

It's fine to argue that he's only been in the business for 3 years but we've seen a hell of a lot of him. And this is a jarring change of direction from anything that we've seen. We expect a new villain every month but not a new personality trait.

 

How many long-term romances has he had, making it clear that he is most definitely straight and this is a complete, jarring change?  High schoolers go with the crowd.  Have kids grown out of mocking, bullying or ostracizing those who are different?  Do the football teams welcome homosexual guys?  Are a couple of trans cheerleaders the norm? Were any of those nine alternate future Tim's married with kids, much less clearly straight and not, say, bisexual? People struggling with understanding their sexuality are hardly unusual. 

 

7 hours ago, archer said:

The original comment, or at least one of the first comments, of it seeming fake rather than organic was complaining that they didn't get diversity from creating a new character but from altering one that we know very well at this point.

 

Show me the character history that says "for sure he is straight".  Or any issue of Tales of Suspense that suggests Tony Stark has a serious drinking problem, rather than being a casual or social drinker.

 

7 hours ago, archer said:

Getting back to your original point. most people who get into cross-dressing don't decide to start when they're a young teen either. But if Tim Drake out of the blue showed up for his next mission in high heels and a very stylish female costume, fans would complain about that too.

 

It's not the high heels and stylish female costume that would be the problem but rather the sudden change with no foreshadowing that it'd be a possibility that it might happen. (At least the lack of foreshadowing would be the problem for most fans.)

 

I'll admit that I don't know how to be a teenaged kid in the 2020's. But I doubt the first indication that someone who might be bi is accepting a date (rather than looking at someone's assets, for example).

 

Comic books are a unique medium in that we get to read a character's innermost thoughts as well as see what he's doing. When you get to read a character's innermost thoughts over a large period of time then you get something happen to his personality that he's literally never even thought about, that seems like the author is cheating rather than treating the reader honestly.

 

Having not read the story, I'm not clear how this "big reveal" comes out, so I'm not prepared to pass judgment on the writer quite yet. But we do not see every minute of any comic character's life.  I have no great desire to see them in the bathroom, for example, and while Reed and Sue have a child, I don't recall ever seeing them engaged in more than a pretty chaste kiss. I do know they have been in a long-term straight relationship.  But I have not seen Tim Drake's long-term relationship with any romantic partner, really.  Maybe he just has not had enough interest in the various girls he has had shorter-term relationships with?

[Asperion]

When it comes to the issue of relationships,  I feel as though it is more of flavor in the story.  If it were removed,  then there most likely would be no to extremely low change in what happens.  The primary reason for it to be included would be as flavorful joking or some story reason for it to be included (such as getting information from the opposition).

[csyphrett]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Exactly.  Few long-term comic book characters are controlled  by their creators.  Many of their creators are retired or even deceased.  Was it FanFic when Roy Thomas wrote the Invaders and the All-Star Squadron?  He was a fan in the 1940s who became a writer in the 1960s. What's with Batman hating guns?  Originaly he carried a gun and even machine gunned a crowd from his plane.  Superman did not start out so squeamish around killing either, nor could he fly or see through walls.  He gained a lot of powers we now consider canon over time.

 

That may not be the story you want to read.  Maybe you don't want to see Superman and Lois sharing a bath either.  But that does not invalidate the story.  Tony Stark was not an alcoholic in Tales of Suspense.  Or was he, but we just did not KNOW he was an alcoholic?  By #128 of his own book, he was most definitely an alcoholic. The creator of Wolverine envisioned him having claws in his gloves,not embedded in his body, and his adamantium skeleton only showed up around #126 of X-Men, when he's been around since #94 (plus the Giant-Size and Hulk appearances before) so that's also fanfic.  So is Peter Parker's appearance.  Stan Lee once noted that the only thing Romita could not draw was Peter Parker, "the little nebbish".  Stan noted he ultimately accepted that Peter grew up from nerdy, awkward teen to a pretty good-looking guy.

 

Someone once wrote to the Justice League book in the 1970s suggesting Aquaman have "the strength of a whale". In later years, it developed that, due to evolution to deal with the ocean pressures, Atlanteans were much stronger and more durable than surface men.  Fanfic?  It wasn't part of the character for decades.  I recall an issue where Aquaman was hunted through Seattle by an assassin.  The assassin had clearly won - he's kept Aquaman out of the water for well over an hour, and we all knew by canon that he needed to go underwater at least every hour.  Only he didn't - it depended on his environment, and in heavy rain in Seattle, he could last a lot longer than an hour.  Pure fanfic, right?

 

For years, we criticized comic book movies because they were not true to the characters - the writers weren't fans.  We still see that in the criticisms of many DCU movies, not so much Marvel.  But when writers are fans, and they develop the characters, now fan fiction is a bad thing instead?  [EDIT:  Sorry for the thread drift towards the title of the thread itself 😇]

 

 

How many long-term romances has he had, making it clear that he is most definitely straight and this is a complete, jarring change?  High schoolers go with the crowd.  Have kids grown out of mocking, bullying or ostracizing those who are different?  Do the football teams welcome homosexual guys?  Are a couple of trans cheerleaders the norm? Were any of those nine alternate future Tim's married with kids, much less clearly straight and not, say, bisexual? People struggling with understanding their sexuality are hardly unusual. 

 

 

Show me the character history that says "for sure he is straight".  Or any issue of Tales of Suspense that suggests Tony Stark has a serious drinking problem, rather than being a casual or social drinker.

 

 

Having not read the story, I'm not clear how this "big reveal" comes out, so I'm not prepared to pass judgment on the writer quite yet. But we do not see every minute of any comic character's life.  I have no great desire to see them in the bathroom, for example, and while Reed and Sue have a child, I don't recall ever seeing them engaged in more than a pretty chaste kiss. I do know they have been in a long-term straight relationship.  But I have not seen Tim Drake's long-term relationship with any romantic partner, really.  Maybe he just has not had enough interest in the various girls he has had shorter-term relationships with?

This is all insightful as always, Hugh, but what you are talking about and what we're talking about are totally different things. What you are talking about are evolving things that happened for instory reasons. What we are talking about is someone taking their fanfiction idea and grafting it on an existing character because they have only been writing for two years and this is the best they can come up with because they have no idea how to write an adventure story. 

 

And Aquaman has always been able to throw a car around since the forties.  

CES

[zslane]

While it may not be "unrealistic" for a teenage character like Tim Drake to explore/discover his sexuality on a deeper, more authentic level, it feels jarring to readers because of the decades-long understand they've had of him. To readers, he's been straight for 32 years regardless of how old he is supposed to be in continuity. In fact, in-continuity age strikes me as a weak metric for justifying things like this because superhero character virtually never age. And just like their age, their core identity is not meant to change drastically over time either. That's why it feels sudden and contrived that Tim Drake is "revealed" as bi-sexual. It is so clearly an attempt to appear progressive, pandering to the identity politics of the moment, while sacrificing the decades-long relationship readers have had with the character in the process.

[Matt the Bruins]

Quote

To readers, he's been straight for 32 years regardless of how old he is supposed to be in continuity.

Only to the readers who, unwittingly or as a choice, have failed to pick up hints and indications over the years that Tim might not be so straight.

[zslane]

Which is probably, like, 95+% of them, right?

[Dr.Device]

 

[Pattern Ghost]

13 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

In later years, it developed that, due to evolution to deal with the ocean pressures, Atlanteans were much stronger and more durable than surface men.

 

Wut? You need to go read his first appearance in More Fun Comics #73.

 

"Cover" art: He's deflecting a large shell with his forearm.

 

Page 5: He punches a deep dent in a sub with the caption: "REACHING THE SUBMARINE, AQUAMAN LUNGES A POWERFUL BLOW AT THE VESSEL'S HAUL -- AND THE METAL PLATES BUCKLE AND SNAP UNDER THE TERRIFIC IMPACT!" The sub is shown sinking in the next panel. From one punch.

 

Page 6: A Nazi drops a sledge hammer on his head, and he's knocked out. So, he's no Superman. He's then tied up and weighted down, then tossed in the ocean.

 

He then enlists the aid of sea critters to get untied.

 

Really, kind of an inconsistent strength level in the story, probably because they wanted something for the sea critters to do. But he's still abnormally strong from the get-go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Greywind]

Clam shell? Oyster? Conch? Inquiring dolphins want to know!

[Pattern Ghost]

He had some dolphins haul him to some coral, which he used to cut the ropes.

[archer]

Eh, if you don't have the right leverage, the strength doesn't mean as much.

 

Most anyone can learn a technique to snap cheap zip ties if they're restrained with their hands in front and people who have a decent amount of strength can do it. 

 

Zip tied behind your back is much tougher.

[Pattern Ghost]

True, but he sunk a submarine with a punch in one panel, then couldn't get out of some ropes in a following panel. He deflects a shell with his forearm on the cover splash panel, but gets taken out by a hammer dropped on his head later. That's just inconsistency. And that's not something we're going to find any comics from that era letting get in the way of their fun.

[csyphrett]

Aquaman taught his octopus to shoot arrows in one story.

CES

[Greywind]

And Green Arrow never forgave him for the wet bowstrings.

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, zslane said:

While it may not be "unrealistic" for a teenage character like Tim Drake to explore/discover his sexuality on a deeper, more authentic level, it feels jarring to readers because of the decades-long understand they've had of him. To readers, he's been straight for 32 years regardless of how old he is supposed to be in continuity. In fact, in-continuity age strikes me as a weak metric for justifying things like this because superhero character virtually never age. And just like their age, their core identity is not meant to change drastically over time either. That's why it feels sudden and contrived that Tim Drake is "revealed" as bi-sexual. It is so clearly an attempt to appear progressive, pandering to the identity politics of the moment, while sacrificing the decades-long relationship readers have had with the character in the process.

 

I am still waiting for the canon evidence that Tim is clearly 100% straight. Show me how his sexuality (as an unshakably straight male with zero uncertainties) has been a part of his "core identity" at any time in his three decades of history.

 

20 hours ago, csyphrett said:

This is all insightful as always, Hugh, but what you are talking about and what we're talking about are totally different things. What you are talking about are evolving things that happened for instory reasons. What we are talking about is someone taking their fanfiction idea and grafting it on an existing character because they have only been writing for two years and this is the best they can come up with because they have no idea how to write an adventure story. 

 

And Aquaman has always been able to throw a car around since the forties.  

CES

He's had a few opposite-sex relationships which basically went nowhere, and which he didn't really seem to focus on, much less prioritize.  That could indicate a greater dedication to other aspects of his life (much like a career-focused individual), but it could also indicate that he wasn't so romantically inclined to the female gender. 

 

How was Tony Stark's alcoholism different?  We saw no indications for many years of Iron Man's history, then ZAP, he's an alcoholic.  Oh wait, he always was, it was just never prominent. 

 

The Hulk's core was Jekyll & Hyde.  But wait, no, we can integrate his personalities.  No, surprise, they weren't integrated - a third personality was created to protect the public.  Oh look, rampaging Hulk who does not realize he is also Banner is back.

 

Bucky is dead.  Dead, dead, dead.  He and Uncle Ben are the only Marvel characters that stay dead.  Oh wait, he's actually alive and has been alive and working behind the scenes all these years.

 

Thor is a persona  Dr. Don Blake takes on when he "possesses the power of Thor" because he is Worthy.  No, wait, he really is Thor and switches identities with Dn Blake.  Oh, fooled you - there is no Don Blake, he's just a construct created by Odin to humble Thor.  Oh, but it turns out ANYONE worthy can still wield the hammer and be granted powers like Thor's - but they aren't Thor's because he does not -de-power.  Well, until another writer changes that.

 

For some inexplicable reason, Tim Drake's sexuality is considered more canon than a lot of other canon, despite being far less central to the character's portrayal over the years than many elements of other characters that have simply changed over time.

 

10 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

 

Wut? You need to go read his first appearance in More Fun Comics #73.

 

"Cover" art: He's deflecting a large shell with his forearm.

 

Page 5: He punches a deep dent in a sub with the caption: "REACHING THE SUBMARINE, AQUAMAN LUNGES A POWERFUL BLOW AT THE VESSEL'S HAUL -- AND THE METAL PLATES BUCKLE AND SNAP UNDER THE TERRIFIC IMPACT!" The sub is shown sinking in the next panel. From one punch.

 

Page 6: A Nazi drops a sledge hammer on his head, and he's knocked out. So, he's no Superman. He's then tied up and weighted down, then tossed in the ocean.

 

He then enlists the aid of sea critters to get untied.

 

Really, kind of an inconsistent strength level in the story, probably because they wanted something for the sea critters to do. But he's still abnormally strong from the get-go.

 

7 hours ago, Pattern Ghost said:

True, but he sunk a submarine with a punch in one panel, then couldn't get out of some ropes in a following panel. He deflects a shell with his forearm on the cover splash panel, but gets taken out by a hammer dropped on his head later. That's just inconsistency. And that's not something we're going to find any comics from that era letting get in the way of their fun.

 

Clearly I was fooled by the fan fiction in the 1960s and 1970s, wherein he was not depicted as superhumanly strong.  Although I will admit the Golden Age examples are less fair as "canon" was not really valued all that much. 

 

Although the Spectre was the ghost of Jim Corrigan for a long time.  Until he wasn't, but instead was the Wrath of God, affixed to a mortal soul.

 

Remember when Swamp Thing was really Alec Holland?  Until it was revealed that he wasn't in the '80's?  Until he was again in the 2000's?  Which version is true canon, and which are just fanfic gone wild?

[Pattern Ghost]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Clearly I was fooled by the fan fiction in the 1960s and 1970s, wherein he was not depicted as superhumanly strong.  Although I will admit the Golden Age examples are less fair as "canon" was not really valued all that much. 

 

Like I said, comics have never let consistency tie them down, and it was especially true the further you go back. 

[zslane]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Show me how his sexuality (as an unshakably straight male with zero uncertainties)

 

I think it makes more sense to say that when it comes to superheroes in the comics, being 100% straight is the assumed default unless clearly and unequivocally shown otherwise. This is, after all, the genre and medium that didn't put any focus on sexual identity for its first couple of decades (and why would it? it's not relevant), and then was made even more squeaky clean by the imposition of the comics code in the 1950s. It is only relatively recently that issues of sexual identity have been directly addressed in mainstream superhero comics. And it wasn't something that became an editorial agenda until a few years ago. So I'd argue that the burden of proof falls on showing an unshakably non-straight character with zero hetero inclinations, since 100% straight has been the assumed default for over eighty years.

[Ternaugh]

Sexual attraction isn't really binary. It's more of a spectrum, and the comics are now starting to reflect that.